Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes The Enterprise and Business Committee
Dydd Iau, 15 Ionawr 2015 Thursday, 15 January 2015
Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions Ymchwiliad i Helpu Pobl Ifanc i Gael Gwaith—Sesiwn 9 Inquiry into Assisting Young People into Work—Session 9
Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.
Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Mick Antoniw	Llafur Labour
Jeff Cuthbert	Llafur Labour
Rhun ap Iorwerth	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Byron Davies	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Keith Davies	Llafur Labour
Yr Arglwydd/Lord Elis-Thomas	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
William Graham	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair)
Eluned Parrott	Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Joyce Watson	Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Michael Davies	Prifathro, Ysgol y Preseli Headteacher, Ysgol y Preseli
Joanna Murray	Cyfarwyddwr y Chweched Dosbarth, Ysgol Gyfun Treorci Director of Sixth Form, Treorchy Comprehensive School
Nia Wyn Roberts	Pennaeth Cynorthwyol, Ysgol Uwchradd Caergybi Assistant Headteacher, Ysgol Uwchradd Caergybi
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Rachel Jones	Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Michael Dauncey	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Claire Morris	Ail Glerc Second Clerk
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29. The meeting began at 09:29.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions
[1] William Graham: Good morning. Can I welcome Members and witnesses to our first committee meeting of the new year? The only apology that I have is from Gwenda Thomas. The meeting is bilingual, and headphones can be used for simultaneous translation from Welsh to English, on channel 1, or for amplification of sound on channel 2. The meeting is being broadcast and a transcript of the proceedings will be issued later. May I remind Members and witnesses there is no need to touch the microphones? They should come on automatically. In the event of a fire alarm, I would ask people to follow the directions from the ushers.
09:30
Ymchwiliad i Helpu Pobl Ifanc i Gael Gwaith—Sesiwn 9 Inquiry into Assisting Young People into Work—Session 9
[2] William Graham: We are continuing today with our inquiry into assisting young people into work. Could I welcome our witnesses, and ask them to give their names and titles for the record?
[3] Mr Davies: Michael Davies, pennaeth Ysgol y Preseli, sir Benfro.		Mr Davies: Michael Davies, headteacher, Ysgol y Preseli, Pembrokeshire.
[4] Ms Murray: Joanna Murray, director of sixth form at Treorchy Comprehensive School.
[5] Ms Roberts: Nia Wyn Roberts, pennaeth cynorthwyol, Ysgol Uwchradd Caergybi.		Ms Roberts: Nia Wyn Roberts, assistant headteacher, Ysgol Uwchradd Caergybi.
[6] William Graham: Thank you very much. We’re going to go straight into questions. Could I ask Keith to start off?
[7] Keith Davies: Thank you, chairman.
[8] Byddaf i’n gofyn yn Gymraeg. Rydym ni eisiau paratoi pobl ifanc i’r farchnad lafur—i ymuno â’r farchnad lafur. Pa weithgarwch sydd orau mewn ysgolion? Chi’n gwybod, ai trwy’r cwricwlwm gyrfaoedd neu drwy fagloriaeth Cymru, neu ryw bethau allgyrsiol yr ydych chi’n eu gwneud? Beth ydych chi’n meddwl yw’r ffordd orau i’w paratoi nhw?		I’ll be asking my questions in Welsh. We want to prepare young people for the labour market—to join the labour market. What activity is best done in school? You know, is it through the careers curriculum, through the Welsh baccalaureate or through the extra-curricular activities that you do? What is the best way to prepare them?
[9] Mr Davies: Os dechreuaf i, ’te, rwy’n credu taw amrywiaeth o weithgareddau ydy’r ateb i hynny. Yn amlwg, mae gan bob ysgol swyddog gyrfâu, ac mae swyddog gyrfâu yn help mawr i bob ysgol. Mae rhai yn llawn amser, ond, wrth gwrs, gyda’r toriadau sy’n wynebu cwmnïau gyrfâu, mae hwnnw’n mynd i fod yn lleihau dros amser. Mae gan bob ysgol gydlynydd addysg yn gysylltiedig â gwaith a chyngor gyrfâu, ac rwy’n credu bod hynny’n angenrheidiol—mae’n swydd hollbwysig, a dyna’r person fyddai yn cydlynu unrhyw weithgareddau.		Mr Davies: Well, if I could kick off, then, I think that the solution to this is to have a whole range of activities. Obviously, all schools have careers officers, and careers officers are a great assistance to all schools. Some are full time, but, of course, with the cuts facing careers companies, that provision is going to reduce over time. Every school has an education co-ordinator working on co-ordinating work and careers advice, and I think that that’s essential—it’s a crucially important role, and that individual is who would co-ordinate any activities.
[10] Mae’r fframwaith addysg cysylltiedig â gwaith a’r fframwaith gyrfâu yn cynnig cyngor i ysgolion ar sut i gynllunio gweithgareddau enghreifftiol. Byddwn i’n awgrymu bod gan bob ysgol raglen addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol ac y byddai’n cael ei integreiddio yn y fan yna. Rwyt ti, Mr Davies, wedi sôn yn barod am fagloriaeth Cymru, a llwyddiant bagloriaeth Cymru, a byddwn i’n cytuno 100% gyda hynny. Mae hyn yn ffordd, yn enwedig o flwyddyn 10 ymlaen, i ysgolion i integreiddio gweithgareddau amrywiol.		The work-related education framework and the careers framework do provide advice to schools on how to design exemplar activities. I would suggest that every school now has a personal and social education programme, and that that would be integrated at that point. Now, Mr Davies, you’ve already mentioned the Welsh baccalaureate, and the success of the Welsh bac, and I would agree 100% with that. This is a good way, particularly from year 10 onwards, for schools to integrate the various activities that they undertake.
[11] Ond, wrth gwrs, fe fyddwn i’n dweud efallai mai rhai o’r pethau pwysicaf yw’r elfennau yma o baratoi disgyblion o ran sgiliau cyfweld, paratoi CVs, cyfweliadau’n cael eu cynnal gyda chyflogwyr allanol, denu cyflogwyr allanol i mewn i’r ysgol i gydweithio ag ysgolion a chydweithio â’r disgyblion, creu cysylltiadau gyda’r colegau lleol ac, yn amlwg, creu cysylltiadau amlwg â’r pynciau craidd—Cymraeg, Saesneg ac yn y blaen. Mae’r fframwaith llythrennedd a rhifedd yn mynd i helpu hyn.		However, I would, of course, say that perhaps some of the most important things are these elements of preparing pupils in terms of interviewing skills, preparing CVs, holding mock interviews with external employers, attracting employers into schools so that they can work with schools and with pupils, creating links with local colleges and, clearly, actually linking in with the core subjects—Welsh, English and so on. The literacy and numeracy framework will assist in this regard.
[12] Fe fydd gan bob ysgol amrywiaeth o weithgareddau gwahanol unigryw, ac rwy’n fodlon ymhelaethu ar hynny ymhellach, ond mae un peth arall pwysig iawn, iawn—i fi, efallai, y peth pwysicaf: o safbwynt disgyblion, beth y maen nhw’n ei fwynhau yn fwy na dim byd arall ydy cyfleoedd i wneud profiad gwaith addas a phenodol. Rwy’n poeni bod yna farc cwestiwn yn mynd i fod dros brofiad gwaith yn y dyfodol, oherwydd mae’r cwmni gyrfa yn ein hardal ni yn tynnu mas o’r system o fetio, ac yn y blaen, y lleoliadau, ac mae hynny’n mynd i gael effaith andwyol ar ddyfodol profiad gwaith, ac yn mynd i roi ein disgyblion ni o dan anfantais. Felly, os oes yna un peth, neu un neges, yr hoffwn i ei roi fan hyn y bore yma, y neges honno yw bod yn rhaid inni gael system profiad gwaith effeithiol lle mae disgyblion—pob disgybl—yn cael yr hawl iddo fe, naill ai ym mlwyddyn 10 ac, yn sicr, ym mlwyddyn 12, pan fyddan nhw yn y chweched dosbarth. Diolch.		Every school will have a variety of different and unique activities in place, and I’m willing to expand upon that further, if required, but there is one other very important thing that I would like to mention—to me, perhaps, the most important thing: from the point of view of pupils, what they enjoy more than anything else is the opportunity to undertake work experience that is relevant and specific. I am concerned that there may be a question mark hanging over work experience in future, because the careers company in our area is withdrawing from the vetting system, and so on, the placements, and that’s going to have a detrimental effect on the future of work experience, and is going to place our pupils under a disadvantage. So, if there is one message that I’d like to convey here this morning, it is that we must have an effective work experience system whereby every pupil has the right to access it, whether in year 10 and certainly in year 12, when they are in the sixth form. Thank you.
[13] Keith Davies: Diolch.		Keith Davies: Thank you.
[14] Ms Murray: I agree with everything that Mr Davies has just said. I think, from our school’s point of view, I mean, what we think is the best preparation for all young people is to try to provide them with as wide an option as possible of curriculum choices, so providing them with a broad curriculum so that they are able to access subjects that are suitable for their ability and, also, for their aspirations, as well. That’s key for us. Their extra-curricular involvement is, obviously, of paramount importance as well, as is the input from the careers service, but we see cuts from the careers service in school, as well, which are impacting on elements, as Mr Davies has already said, regarding work experience and so on. It is the extra-curricular links that we can build as a school, as well, with the universities and with employers that will give pupils extra opportunities that they wouldn’t otherwise have, and it’s us trying to forge those links, I think. I think, to a great extent, the onus is very much on the school to forge those links, as opposed to outside agencies contacting us and asking for links to be developed. Obviously, depending on the area in which you live, the opportunities can be limited, really. However, I think Mr Davies has covered most of the other points that I would’ve made there.
[15] Ms Roberts: Yng Nghaergybi, rydyn ni o’r farn ein bod ni’n ceisio gwau y fframwaith llythrennedd a rhifedd efo’r cwricwlwm a’r byd gwaith. Mi roeddem ni wedi rhagweld y buasai yna doriadau yn y gwasanaeth y buasai Gyrfa Cymru yn ei gynnig i ni, ac fel ysgol, rydym ni wedi bod yn weithgar iawn yn sicrhau ymrwymiad gan gyflogwyr a chyflwyno plant i gyfleoedd ym myd gwaith, rwy’n meddwl, yn gynnar iawn. Dyna un o’r ffyrdd ymlaen.		Ms Roberts: In Holyhead, we’re of the opinion that we’re trying to weave the literacy and numeracy framework in with the curriculum and the world of work. We had foreseen that there would be cuts in the Careers Wales service provided to us, and, as a school, we’ve been very industrious in trying to get a commitment from employers to introduce children to workplace opportunities very early. That’s one of the ways ahead.
[16] Mae gennym ni gynlluniau arbennig sy’n rhedeg efo cwmni Stenna ers rhai blynyddoedd. Mae disgyblion blwyddyn 9 yn mynd i gwmni Stenna i edrych ar y sgiliau cymhwyso rhif. Mae gennym ni gynllun rŵan efo’n ysgolion cynradd, sydd yn gweithio yn Stenna, yn edrych ar sut mae rhifedd yn cael ei ddefnyddio ym myd gwaith. Mae gennym ni gysylltiadau arbennig ag RAF y Fali, sydd ar ein stepen drws ni, ac mae gennym ni griw o ddisgyblion yn fan honno sy’n cael profiadau anhygoel o dan gynllun drwy’r Jon Egging Trust, a hefyd y partneriaethau sydd gennym ni ag Ymestyn yn Ehangach. Buon nhw yn arbennig yn ein helpu ni i gael diwrnod lle aeth athrawon i mewn i’r byd gwaith—achos, o gofio, nid oes llawer o athrawon wedi bod i mewn ym myd gwaith—i weld lle mae eu pwnc nhw yn ffitio i mewn i’r agenda ehangach, a beth fydd angen i ddisgyblion ei gael pan fyddan nhw’n gadael yr ysgol.		We have some excellent schemes, which have been running with the company Stenna for some years. Year 9 pupils go to Stenna to look at numeracy application skills. We have a scheme currently with our primary schools, which are working with Stenna, to look at how numeracy is used in the world of work. We also have great links with RAF Valley, which is on our doorstep, and we have a group of pupils there who are getting excellent opportunities through a scheme under the auspices of the Jon Egging Trust, as well as the partnerships that we have with Ymestyn yn Ehangach. They were especially helpful in arranging a day where teachers went into the workplace—because you have to remember that not many teachers have been in the world of work—to see how their subject fits into the broader agenda, and what pupils will need to have when they leave school.
[17] Keith Davies: Os gallaf i ddilyn hwnna lan, ‘te, beth yw’r prif rwystrau i bobl ifainc sy’n ei chael hi’n anodd i ddod at swydd?		Keith Davies: If I could follow up on that, what are the main barriers for young people who find it difficult to find employment?
[18] Ms Roberts: Byddwn i’n dweud, yn ein hardal ni, fod llythrennedd a rhifedd yn rhywbeth sydd angen ei ddatblygu ymhellach, ac mae yna ddulliau o wneud hynny drwy fyd gwaith. Dyna mae’r RAF y Fali yn ei wneud efo ni. Nid fod plant yn mynd allan a chael gweithdai. Mi wnes i egluro iddyn nhw fod eisiau datblygu elfennau llythrennedd a rhifedd os yn bosib, ond maen nhw’n gwneud pethau fel adeiladu tîm, ymrwymo, bod yn flaengar, a chymryd rhan. Mae yna nifer fawr o brofiadau sydd eu hangen i godi hunanhyder disgyblion, ac rwy’n meddwl, os medrwn ni eu cael nhw’n hyderus i fynd y tu allan i’w maes, lle maen nhw’n hynod gyfforddus, mai dyna’r ffordd ymlaen, a dyna rydyn ni’n ceisio ei wneud yng Nghaergybi.		Ms Roberts: Well, I would say, in our area, that literacy and numeracy are things that needs to be further developed, and there are ways and means of doing that through the world of work. That’s what RAF Valley does with us. It’s not that children actually go out and have workshops. I did explain to them that they need to develop literacy and numeracy skill if possible, but they also do things like developing team-building skills, learning commitment, innovation and participation. There are a large number of experiences that they need in order to boost the self-confidence of pupils, and if we can get them to be confident going out to their field, and to where they feel comfortable, that’s the way forward, and that’s what we’re trying to do in Holyhead.
[19] Keith Davies: Diolch.		Keith Davies: Thank you.
[20] William Graham: One particular point you made there we’ve heard in evidence before. Would you agree—or not, as the case may be—that, in terms of subject choice, sometimes it’s made too early and that affects development for any choice of career?
[21] Ms Murray: I think, possibly yes. I think it could be argued that children are asked to specialise very early on. I mean, particularly in the option process in year 9, pupils are asked to choose—and particularly now with the advent of the Welsh bac being brought back into key stage 4 as a compulsory element—obviously their choices of subject are narrowed even further. I think pupils do find it incredibly difficult to make informed choices at that age. Obviously, even if they make an informed choice, as they move through key stage 4, they do find that, often, maybe they have opted incorrectly and so on. I mean, as a school, we do try to guide as much as we possibly can. I would say that our options process is extremely thorough, both in year 9 and in year 11. They are given access to a variety of different sources of careers information: from the careers service, from us as a sixth-form team and as a key stage 4 senior management team, and from employers. We are able to organise, you know, industry days and we have careers events in schools and this type of thing. However, I think actually trying to tick all boxes from a pupil’s point of view is very, very difficult at 14, and is equally as difficult, I think, at 16 as well. I think, for schools, one of the challenges that we’ve got is trying to make sure that pupils haven’t straitjacketed themselves, to a certain extent, and that they haven’t constrained their option choices for university or for employment later on. But, yes, I agree that, sometimes, I think pupils do find it incredibly difficult to choose at that age.
[22] Mr Davies: Byddwn i’n dweud, ar hyn o bryd, fod y ffaith bod disgyblion yn dewis yn 14 oed yn iawn, ond un peth y mae bron bob ysgol uwchradd yn ei wneud nawr yw cynllunio’u cwricwlwm ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae Joanna wedi cyfeirio at y ffaith fod y fagloriaeth yn orfodol. Mae wedi bod yn orfodol—. Wel, mae nifer o ysgolion wedi’i chyflwyno’n gynnar. Ond, mae’r ffaith, nawr, fod cyrsiau newydd mathemateg, Cymraeg a Saesneg yn mynd i fod yn fwy heriol yn golygu bod ysgolion yn mynd i ganiatáu mwy o amser cwricwlaidd ar gyfer y pynciau craidd. Mae hynny’n mynd i leihau yr opsiynau y mae disgyblion yn eu gwneud, lle, yn y gorffennol, yn draddodiadol, byddai pedwar dewis gyda’r disgybl. Rhaid i fi ddweud, rŷm ni, yn Ysgol y Preseli, wedi lleihau nifer yr opsiynau, ond mae hyn yn mynd yn groes i’r graen i beth rŷm ni’n teimlo yn ein calonnau, oherwydd mae disgyblion wrth eu boddau yn dewis beth maen nhw’n moyn gwneud. Rŷm ni nawr yn mynd i orfodi iddyn nhw wneud mwy o Saesneg, mwy o fathemateg, mwy o Gymraeg a, maes o law, mwy o wyddoniaeth, ac mae yna bris i’w dalu yn fan yna hefyd. Ie, gallech chi ddweud, ‘Wel, mae’r safonau ym mathemateg a’r pynciau craidd yn mynd i wella’, ond rwy’n teimlo, efallai, y bydd yn anodd iawn i ddisgyblion—. Pe byddech chi’n gofyn i ddisgyblion, pe bydden nhw’n eistedd fan hyn, bydden nhw’n dweud y byddai’n well ganddyn nhw i gael dewisiadau sy’n benodol ar gyfer eu dyfodol nhw, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth, efallai, y bydd raid ichi gymryd i ystyriaeth, achos mae pob ysgol yn gwneud hyn ar hyn o bryd.		Mr Davies: I would say that, at present, the fact that pupils choose at the age of 14 is right, but one thing that nearly all secondary schools do now is plan their curriculum for the next year. Joanna has referred to the fact that the baccalaureate has been mandatory. It has been mandatory—. Well, many schools have introduced it early. But, the fact that, now, new courses for maths, Welsh and English are going to be more challenging means that schools are going to allow more curricular time for those core subjects. That’s going to reduce the options that pupils do, where, in the past, traditionally, the pupils had four options. I have to say that we, in Ysgol y Preseli, have reduced the number of options, but this conflicts, perhaps, with what we feel in our hearts, because pupils love choosing what they want to do. We’re now going to force them to do more English, more maths, more Welsh and, in due course, more science, and there is a price to be paid there. Yes, you can say, ‘Well, the standards in maths and the core subjects will improve’, but I do feel that, perhaps, it will be very difficult for pupils—. If you asked pupils, if they were sitting here, they would say that they would prefer to have options that are specific for their futures, and that’s something that you might need to take into account, because all schools are doing this at present.
[23] Keith Davies: A gaf i ddilyn lan ar hynna?		Keith Davies: Can I follow up on that?
[24] William Graham: Yes, of course.
[25] Keith Davies: Mae’r CBI wedi dod â llyfryn mas yn y ddeufis diwethaf, rwy’n credu, ac mae’n sôn am ysgolion, ac un o’r pethau mae’n ei ddweud yn yr adroddiad yw y dylai pob plentyn 14 oed sy’n mynd i wneud cyrsiau TGAU gael y cyfle i wneud cemeg, bywydeg a ffiseg, ac nid gwyddoniaeth ddwbl. Mae nifer o ysgolion yng Nghymru nad ydynt yn rhoi’r cyfle yna i blant. A ydych chi’n cytuno â’r CBI?		Keith Davies: The CBI have published a booklet in the past two months, I think, and it does mention schools, and one of the things that it says in that particular document is that every 14-year-old pupil who is entering GCSE courses should have the opportunity to study chemistry, biology and physics, and not double-award science. There are a number of schools in Wales that don’t provide those opportunities to pupils. Do you agree with the CBI?
[26] Mr Davies: Rwy’n meddwl, os ydych chi am ddatblygu gweithlu sydd â’r sgiliau i barhau â gwyddoniaeth i Safon Uwch, yna mae’n rhaid i’r disgyblion yma gael y cyfle i wneud beth rŷm ni’n ei alw’n wyddoniaeth driphlyg. Nawr, mae ysgolion yn trefnu hyn mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Fel mae’n digwydd, gyda ni—a gallaf ddim ond siarad am ein hysgol ni ar hyn o bryd—mae pawb yn gwneud y dwbl a bydd y triphlyg yn un o’r opsiynau. Mewn ffordd, os ydyw’n un o’r opsiynau, mae’n lleihau wedyn yr opsiynau eraill. Felly, fe fyddet ti lawr i ddau wedyn, mewn ffordd—		Mr Davies: I think, if you want to develop a workforce that has the skills to continue with science to A-level, then the pupils need to have the opportunity to do what we call triple science. Now, schools arrange this in different ways. As it happens, with us—and I can only talk about our school at present—everyone does double science with us and the triple science will be one of the options. In a way, if it is one of the options, it does reduce the other options. So, you would be down to two then, in a way—
[27] Keith Davies: Dyna pam rwy’n gofyn y cwestiwn.		Keith Davies: That’s why I’m asking the question.
[28] Mr Davies: Ond rwy’n teimlo—ac mae’r pennaeth gwyddoniaeth yn dweud wrthyf i—os yw plant yn gwneud y dwbl, maent yn mynd i’w weld e’n anodd iawn, iawn i ymdopi â lefel A yn y gwyddorau. Felly, y cyngor rŷm ni’n ei roi yw: os ydych chi am wneud pwnc gwyddonol lefel A, mae angen ichi ddewis gwyddoniaeth driphlyg. O ganlyniad, mae canran uchel iawn o ddisgyblion yn gwneud hynny.		Mr Davies: But I feel—and the head of science tells me—that if children to the double science, then they are going to find it difficult to cope with A-level in the sciences. So, the advice that we give is: if you want to do a science subject at A-level, you need to choose triple science. As a result, there is a very high percentage of pupils who do that.
[29] Ms Roberts: A rhaid cofio hefyd am y dangosyddion newydd sy’n dod allan gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â’r lefel 2 yn gynhwysol-edrych ar yr wyth gorau, a’r pwyntiau y maent yn eu cael am yr wyth gorau, a hefyd y pump A* ac A. Rwy’n meddwl, ymhen amser, y bydd hynny hefyd yn effeithio, o bosib, ar y dewisiadau sydd ar gyfer disgyblion.		Ms Roberts: You must also bear in mind the new indicators being introduced by Government on the inclusive level 2—looking at the top eight, and the points that they receive for the top eight, and also the five A* and A. I think that, in time, that will also have an impact on the options for pupils.
[30] Mr Davies: Mae hynny’n driver mawr. Mae Nia’n sôn fanna am yr wyth. Yn amlwg, yn y dyfodol, y naw gorau fydd e—y naw wedi’u capio, neu beth bynnag y byddant yn ei alw. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n cynnwys dwy wyddoniaeth. Felly, yn naturiol, mae ysgolion yn mynd i roi mwy o amser ar gyfer y pynciau sydd yn cyfri, fel petai.		Mr Davies: That’s a huge driver. Nia mentioned the eight. Obviously, in future, it will be the top nine—the nine that are capped, or whatever they are going to call that. Of course, that includes two sciences. So, naturally, schools are going to provide more time for those subjects that count, as it were.
[31] Keith Davies: Hyn sydd ynghlwm ag academyddion—sy’n dod mas nawr, ar 26 Ionawr?		Keith Davies: This ties in with the academics—coming out now, on 26 January?
[32] Mr Davies: Ie, ond fe fydd hwn yn newid yn raddol, Mr Davies, o safbwynt—. Rŷm ni wedi mynd i’r sgôr pwyntiau ehangach ac wedi capio’r wyth gorau, ac wedyn bydd yn mynd yn y naw gorau, sy’n gorfod cynnwys Saesneg iaith neu Gymraeg iaith, y ddau gymhwyster newydd mathemategol a dau gymhwyster gwyddonol. Felly, mae cwricwlwm ysgolion, felly, yn cael ei seilio o gwmpas hwn, oherwydd dyma sut mae ysgolion yn mynd i gael eu mesur. Wedyn, rydych chi’n cael hwnnw ar un ochr, ac wedyn rydych chi’n gorfod meddwl am ddyfodol y plant a’r opsiynau, a’r opsiynau galwedigaethol. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd gyda chi gwestiwn i ni biti’r NEETs maes o law, a byddwn i’n dweud, ‘Wel, gallwch chi stwffio Cymraeg a Saesneg a maths i lawr gyddgau’r plant yma, ond os nad yw nhw’n cael y cyfle i wneud profiad gwaith ac i wneud cyrsiau galwedigaethol penodol, ni fyddan nhw’n cael eu denu i’r gweithlu.’		Mr Davies: Yes, but this will change gradually, Mr Davies, in terms of—. We’ve got a wider points score and capped the top eight, and which will then be the top nine, which will have to include English language or Welsh language, the two new maths qualifications and two sciences. Therefore, the curriculum of schools is based around that, because that’s how schools are going to be assessed. So, you have that on the one hand, and then you have to think about the future of the pupils and the options, and the vocational options available to them. I’m sure that you will have questions about the NEETs later this morning, and I would say, ‘Well, you can actually stuff Welsh, English and maths down their throats, but if they don’t have an opportunity to do work experience and to do specific vocational courses, then they’re not going to be attracted to the workplace.’
09:45
[33] Keith Davies: Diolch yn fawr.		Keith Davies: Thank you very much.
[34] William Graham: Thank you. Jeff.
[35] Jeff Cuthbert: Yes. Thank you very much, Chair. Obviously, the subject of this inquiry is assisting young people into work. That means, of course, identifying the employment opportunities that are there now or are likely to be there in the foreseeable future, locally and more widely in Wales. I understand what you said about the careers service. I know very well that it’s had its budget reduced, but, there again, the quid pro quo is meant to be a more focused careers service, working in partnership particularly with employers and learning providers. So, it’s really about the effectiveness or not, as the case may be now, of partnership working as you see it. I agree that structured work experience opportunities are absolutely crucial in helping young people to identify where their future careers might lie. So, how well are employers stepping up to the mark now, in your opinion, and are you working with other partners such as work-based learning providers?
[36] Ms Murray: It’s difficult to say, really. As I said in my original statement, we very rarely get approached by employers. Is this what you’re asking: to become involved with the school?
[37] Jeff Cuthbert: It’s part of it, yes.
[38] Ms Murray: I mean, we find that we have to seek out employers who are willing to work with us. I mean, it would be ideal for us if we had a lot more local employers. Unfortunately, in the area in which I teach, there are very few local employers. I don’t know this for a fact but I would imagine that Treorchy Comprehensive School is one of the biggest employers in the top end of the Rhondda valley. So, it’s the school itself. So, in terms of other employers, we’re actually looking at a very limited base. We have developed links with some local employers. We have sought them out. They’re providing really valuable work experience placements now to some less able pupils in years 12 and 13, and we’re very grateful to that link. We’re very fortunate to have a football academy in school, and we forge links there with—. We were forging a link, I should say, with Swansea City AFC, and hopefully—. I mean, as a business, Swansea City AFC should be able to provide us with a lot of other employment and work-based opportunities as well. I don’t feel that employers are seeking us out in order to try to capture young people and train them, maybe, and give us an idea of what exactly they want from us in terms of, you know, a ready-made product to enter the work market. So, I think, from our point of view, that’s what I would say on that point.
[39] Ms Roberts: On that point, up in Anglesey, we’re very fortunate in the support that we are having from the employers—I mentioned some earlier. At the end of this week, we have a big careers fair in school, where the focus is on bilingualism. That’s something that we feel is important, as well, to drive forward. We have over 20 employers that are coming in. Tonight, we have a family learning session in school where a number of agencies and employers are coming in together to support or help parents to see what is out there. It’s a way of showing who is out there, and it’s joined-up thinking and working together. We work extremely closely also with our Communities First partnership. They offer extended work experience places, but with qualifications for pupils as well. They are very, very good at supporting us across the board.
[40] Mr Davies: Ar y pwynt hwnnw, mae sir Benfro, fel ŷch chi’n gwybod, rwy’n siŵr, wedi colli canran uchel o waith wrth i gwmnïau fynd i’r wal—y diweddaraf ohonynt yw Murco yn Aberdaugleddau. Felly, i bob pwrpas, twristiaeth ac amaethyddiaeth yw lle mae mwyafrif o boblogaeth y sir yn cael ei gyflogi. Ond, ar y pwynt hwnnw, byddwn i’n dweud bod gan lywodraethwyr ysgol rôl i’w chwarae fan hyn oherwydd fe fydd yna ganran o lywodraethwyr sydd yn gyflogwyr. Yn ein hysgol ni, rydym wedi sefydlu’r hyn sy’n cael ei alw’n banel diwydiant, neu banel cyflogwyr. Mae’r panel cyflogwyr yn cwrdd unwaith bob tymor. Y cylch gorchwyl penodol yw i fonitro ac i arfarnu rhaglen addysg yn gysylltiedig â byd gwaith, a hefyd i roi cyngor i athrawon ynglŷn â’r hyn y mae cyflogwyr am ei gael. Mae yna gynrychiolwyr, er enghraifft, o’r CITB ac yn y blaen, ar y panel hwn.		Mr Davies: On that point, Pembrokeshire, as you know, I am sure, has lost a high percentage of employment as companies have gone to the wall, the most recent being Murco in Milford Haven. To a certain extent, it is in tourism and agriculture that the majority of people in the county are employed. However, on that particular point, I would say that school governors have a role to play here because there will be a percentage of governors who are employers. In our school, we have established what is called an industry panel, or an employers’ panel. The employers’ panel meets once a term. The specific terms of reference are to monitor and to appraise the work-based learning programme, and also to give advice to teachers in terms of what employers want. There are representatives, for example, from the CITB and so forth on that panel.
[41] Mae e wedi cael ei sefydlu dros amser ac yn amlwg wedi arwain at nifer fawr o weithgareddau arbennig o dda. Gwnaf i jest gyfeirio at un neu ddau ohonyn nhw. Un ohonyn nhw yw Taith at Waith—fe sonioch chi ynglŷn â pha mor gynnar y dylai disgyblion ddod i wybod mwy am fyd gwaith. Wel, mae blwyddyn 9 yn flynyddol yn mynd mas at gyflogwyr, pob un ohonyn nhw. Nid ydyn nhw’n cael gwybod i ble maen nhw’n mynd. Maen nhw’n mynd mewn fleet o fysus o Grymych i wahanol lefydd am un diwrnod. Felly, maen nhw’n cael blas ar fyd gwaith. Hynny yw, nid y cyflogwyr sy’n dod i’r ysgol, ond y plant sy’n mynd at y cyflogwyr, ac rŷm ni’n gweld hynny’n gweithio’n arbennig o dda ac yn codi ymwybyddiaeth disgyblion o beth sydd allan yna.		It has been established over time and, evidently, has led to a number of activities that are very good. I will just refer to a couple of them now. One of them is Journey to Work—you mentioned how early pupils should get to know more about the world of work, well, year 9 annually goes out to employers, all of them. They don’t get to know where they’re going, but they go in a fleet of buses from Crymych to different places for one day. So, they have a taste of the world of work. That is, it’s not the employers coming to the school, but the children going out to the employers, and we see that working very well and raising awareness among pupils of what’s out there.
[42] Yn ail, sydd ynghlwm wrth yr hyn y mae Nia yn ei ddweud, rŷm ni’n cynnal diwrnod rhifedd yn y gweithle ac rŷm ni’n cynnig diwrnod iaith yn y gweithle, lle rŷm ni’n tynnu i mewn—. Gwnaf i jest gyfeirio at y rhifedd yn gyntaf—mae hwn wedi bod yn mynd ers sawl blwyddyn—lle rŷm ni’n cael pobl o fyd iechyd, yr heddlu, penseiri a gwahanol bobl yn dod i mewn i ddangos i grwpiau o blant sut maen nhw’n defnyddio rhifedd yn eu gwaith nhw ac felly’n dangos iddyn nhw pa mor bwysig yw mathemateg, yn elfennol, ac, yn yr un ffordd nawr, iaith yn y gweithle. Mae’r rhaglenni yna, sydd wedi tyfu mas o’r panel cyflogwyr, yn dangos ichi, efallai, sut mae partneriaeth a phartneriaethau gyda chyflogwyr yn gallu rhoi cyngor i ysgolion ar beth maen nhw’n edrych amdano, ac wedyn rŷm ninnau’n gweithio gyda’n gilydd ar raglen o ddiwrnod i grwpiau o ddisgyblion neu i flynyddoedd cyfan.		Secondly, and this is tied in to what Nia said, we have a day of numeracy in the workplace and we offer a day of language in the workplace, where we draw in—. I will just refer to the numeracy day first, and this has been running for several years, where we have people from the world of health, the police, architects and different people coming in to show groups of children how they use numbers in their workplace and, therefore, showing them how important maths is, in a fundamental sense, and, in the same way, language in the workplace. Those programmes, which have grown out of the employer panel, show you how a partnership and partnerships with employers can give advice to schools on what they are looking for, and we then work together on a one-day programme for groups of pupils or for entire years.
[43] William Graham: Thank you. Byron.
[44] Byron Davies: Yes, hello. I just want to wind back a bit, actually, to a point that the Chair raised and pick up on it, and that is: what safety valve is there for a child who, perhaps, follows a science-based curriculum and suddenly finds that it is not for that person? Is there any sort of safety valve for that person to change back or early identification of that—if that made sense?
[45] Mr Davies: Wel, fe wnaf i bigo lan ar hynny. Fe fyddai disgybl o flwyddyn 9 yn gwneud ei ddewisiadau ac yn penderfynu gwneud gwyddoniaeth driphlyg, a byddai hynny’n golygu wedyn y byddai canran o’i amser e—un diwrnod mas o bump—yn wyddoniaeth. Fe ddywedwn ni fod y disgybl yna, ar ôl y ddwy flynedd o astudio gwyddoniaeth, wedi cael llond bola ohono fe. Wel, ar hyn o bryd, mae ganddo fe dri dewis arall a’r pynciau craidd. So, pan mae e’n mynd ymlaen i lefel A, nid yw, efallai, yn gymaint â hynny o broblem. Os yw’r disgybl yn dewis cemeg, ffiseg, mathemateg ac yn y blaen ar gyfer lefel A ac mae e wedyn yn penderfynu nad honno yw’r ffordd ymlaen, mae hynny yn ei wneud e’n anoddach oherwydd, wrth gwrs, mae’n dibynnu pa gwrs y mae e am fynd amdano fe mewn addysg uwch, neu efallai fydd e ddim am fynd i addysg uwch.		Mr Davies: Well, I’ll pick up on that, if I may, then. A year nine pupil would make his choices and would perhaps decide to do triple science. That would then mean that a percentage of his or her time—one day out of five—would be taken up by science. Let us say that that pupil, after two years studying science, had had enough. Well, at the moment he or she would have three other choices in addition to the core subjects, so when he or she goes on to A-levels, it isn’t that much of a problem. But if the pupil chooses chemistry, physics, maths and so on and so forth at A-level, and he or she then decides that that is not the way forward, that makes it more difficult, of course, because it depends which course he or she wants to study at higher education, or perhaps that individual wouldn’t want to go on to higher education.
[46] Byddai cyngor, yn amlwg, yn gallu cael ei roi iddo fe. Y cyngor cyntaf y byddwn i’n ei roi i’r person, os ydyn nhw eisiau gwneud tro pedol, yw, efallai, i gael cyfarfod gyda’u rhieni ac yna cyfarfod gyda’r swyddog gyrfâu i weld beth ydy’r opsiynau. Ond mae’n dibynnu pa mor bell mae e wedi mynd yn y cyrsiau yna cyn iddo fe wneud tro pedol. I ateb y cwestiwn, mae’n mynd i fod yn anoddach yn y chweched dosbarth, er mae yna ddigon o ddewisiadau mas yna o ran cyrsiau iddyn nhw. Gyda TGAU, fyddwn i ddim yn meddwl ei bod yn gymaint â hynny o broblem, oherwydd, wel, un dewis yw e mas o’r pynciau y maen nhw wedi’u gwneud. Ond, rwy’n derbyn bod pobl yn gwneud camgymeriadau yn eu dewisiadau ac, os trof i fe rownd, rwy’n gallu cyfeirio at ddau ddisgybl a oedd yn gwneud pynciau celfyddydol yn lefel A cyn penderfynu eu bod nhw’n moyn gwneud meddygaeth ar y diwedd. Roedd yna ffordd iddyn nhw i fynd i mewn i wneud meddygaeth ac fe fuon nhw’n llwyddiannus, ond oherwydd eu gallu nhw yn fwy na dim byd arall. Felly, mae yna ffordd i’r gwrthwyneb.		Now, advice could be given, of course. The first advice that I would give to that individual if they want to actually do a u-turn is to have a meeting along with his or her parents and the careers officer to discuss options. But it depends how far that pupil has gone in those courses before doing that u-turn. To answer your question, it is going to be more difficult in the sixth form, although there are plenty of options out there in terms of courses for pupils. At GCSE, I wouldn’t have thought that it would be such a great problem, because it is one option out of the other subjects that they have chosen. But I accept that people do make mistakes when they make their choices and, if I can turn that around, I can refer to two pupils who were studying humanities at A-level and then decided that they wanted to study medicine. Now, there was a route for them into medicine and they were successful, but that was because of their own ability rather than anything else. So, there is a contrary route, as it were.
[47] William Graham: Eluned.
[48] Eluned Parrott: Sorry, I just wanted also to follow up on this issue of the breadth of the curriculum and whether it’s narrowing down choices for young people at too early a point in their career, because, in year 9, you’re not looking as far as the university prospectuses to try to work out where it is that you’re going to go with your life. One thing I’m very concerned about is that businesses tell us that a skill that they need is modern European languages, and that is one of the options that young people are choosing between when they are choosing whether or not to do the three robust sciences, whether or not they need to do, maybe, arts and humanities subjects; maybe they want to do something they really enjoy out of those kinds of subjects. There has been a massive collapse in modern European languages. Do you think that this trend is going to continue if this curriculum is going to be brought in at the sides?
[49] Ms Murray: I suspect yes. I am a modern linguist myself; that is my subject, and over the years I’ve been teaching we’ve seen a gradual decline in numbers in both French and Spanish, particularly at A-level. I think, I mean, if I speak from the school’s point of view, we’re a fairly robust school in terms of modern languages at key stage 4. We do have high numbers, I mean, compared to most other schools in the local area that I know of. I think that there is going to be a difficulty when the year 9 options process changes now, and they are more focused on science. They’ve got the Welsh bac to take into account and we are restricting their options. I don’t think this is going to do us any favours, because I think pupils will—. They perceive modern languages as being a very difficult subject. I think that is the first thing to say. I think, also, because Welsh is compulsory, they will see that they are doing a language. Some of them see no need to opt for a second language and, at the moment, I cannot foresee the situation getting any better, in all honesty. I think that the way that the modern languages curriculum, particularly at key stage 4—and the qualifications for modern languages at key stage 4—has been altered, that really alienated lower-ability pupils, certainly. When I say ‘lower-ability pupils’, we are not really talking about the bottom end of the ability scale now. The middle-ability pupils find it incredibly difficult to access the modern language exams, I think, now. It is becoming what we—. We almost consider it in school now to be almost a niche subject, and it is almost only accessible by the higher-ability pupils, and I think it is a great shame, because, as you say, the ability to speak a modern language is fundamental, I think. Our A-level numbers are dropping off, and we’re the only school in Rhondda that offers any language at A-level. And our numbers—. We operate as part of a consortium, which means that the other Rhondda schools can come to us to study French or Spanish at A-level. We’ve had no uptake from any of the schools for Spanish in the six years that the consortium has been in place. We have very, very limited numbers coming to study French, as well, and our own French numbers and Spanish numbers are gradually declining. So, yes, I think it’s a problem.
[50] Eluned Parrott: I think that’s a critical issue, isn’t it, really? Not only does it—. If people don’t choose a modern language at year 9, then clearly they’re not going to take those skills further. It means that they’re not going to be able to go, for example, to Oxford to study English, and it’s an unforeseen consequence of not really thinking through your options at that year 9 point. But also, we’ve talked in this committee about the importance of things like Erasmus placements broadening people’s horizons and giving them an opportunity to look beyond the borders of Wales. What can we do to turn this around in terms of modern languages?
[51] Ms Roberts: In our school, we did see the decline of MFL at GCSE, but our head of MFL has brought in lots of people from various places to talk about the importance of having a modern foreign language. We’ve had university students in, we’ve had Chinese workshops, we’ve had a whole raft of things. So we were absolutely delighted this year when we had 28 pupils out of a cohort of about 140 opting for—. That’s a good-size class. But it’s working with employers, and employers giving those messages, that has also made a difference—plus the drive from our head of modern languages.
[52] Mr Davies: Nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn help bod arian wedi cael ei dorri ar gyfer CiLT, oherwydd roedd CiLT yn gwneud lot o waith i hyrwyddo ieithoedd tramor modern. Rwy’n gwybod bod eu harian nhw wedi cael ei dorri, ac yn y blaen. Byddwn i’n cytuno gyda phopeth mae Joanna wedi dweud. Mae fy ngwraig i yn athrawes Ffrangeg, ac mae hi’n cwyno trwy’r amser bod y niferoedd yn mynd lawr, ond mae’n cwyno oherwydd y gystadleuaeth yn y pynciau. Rhoddaf esiampl ichi. Os ydym ni’n mynd i lawr i dri grŵp dewis, ac mae gwyddoniaeth driphlyg yn un, bydd lot o blant abl yn dewis gwyddoniaeth driphlyg, daearyddiaeth a hanes, neu gwyddoniaeth driphlyg, Ffrangeg a daearyddiaeth—byddan nhw’n methu gwneud hanes. Mae gennych chi’r gystadleuaeth yma.		Mr Davies: I don’t think it’s helped that money has been cut for CiLT, because CiLT did a lot of work in terms of promoting modern foreign languages. I know that their money has been cut, and so forth. I would agree with everything that Joanna has said. My wife is a French teacher, and she always complains that numbers are dropping, but she complains because of competition in subjects. I’ll give you an example. If we go down to three options groups, and triple science is one, a lot of able pupils will choose triple science, geography and history, or triple science, French and geography—they will not do history. You have that competition.
10:00
[53] Mewn ysgol arall gyfagos, mae gwyddoniaeth driphlyg yn erbyn Ffrangeg, felly gallwch chi ddychmygu y gystadleuaeth yn y fan honno o safbwynt gostyngiad yn y niferoedd. Rwy’n credu hefyd—Mr Davies, byddech chi’n cytuno yn y fan hon rwy’n siŵr—bod yr iaith fodern wedi cael ei thorri mas o’r fagloriaeth, i bob pwrpas. Roedd yr iaith fodern, roeddwn i’n meddwl, yn mynd lawr yn reit dda; mae’n dibynnu sut mae’n cael ei chyflwyno, rwy’n gwybod—		In a different school, triple science is set against French, so you can imagine the competition there in terms of the reduction in numbers. I also think—Mr Davies, I am sure that you’d agree with this—that modern languages have been cut out of the baccalaureate to all intents and purposes. Modern languages, I thought, were going down very well; it depends how they’re presented, of course—
[54] Keith Davies: A’r rheswm roedd hi mewn, wrth gwrs, oedd bod cymaint o blant ym mlwyddyn 9 yn penderfynu peidio â’i dewis, ac wedyn yn cael cyfle pan oedden nhw’n mynd mewn i’r chweched achos bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw wneud rhyw iaith arall.		Keith Davies: The reason it was in there, of course, was the fact that so many children in year 9 decided not to choose it, and then had an opportunity when they went into the sixth form, in that they had to do another language.
[55] Mr Davies: A thrwy hynny, roedd e’n codi ymwybyddiaeth y disgyblion o ddiwylliannau ac ieithoedd gwahanol. Rwy’n gwybod bod ysgolion yn ei wneud e mewn gwahanol ffordd—roeddem ni’n gwneud Siapanaeg, ac yn y blaen—ac roedd e’n wych; roedd y plant yn wirioneddol ei fwynhau. Nid wyf cweit yn deall sut yn y byd mae hynny wedi cael ei dorri. Eto i gyd, mae’n cael ei dorri mas o’r fagloriaeth ac yn cael ei wasgu yn y dewisiadau. Roedd Joanna yn sôn taw nhw yw’r unig ganolfan yn yr ardal. Yn sir Benfro, mae yna ganolfan yn y de, canolfan yn y gogledd ac Ysgol y Preseli, felly, o wyth ysgol uwchradd, dim ond tair, mewn ffordd, sy’n cynnig ieithoedd tramor modern. Felly, mae e yn argyfwng.		Mr Davies: And that did raise pupils’ awareness of other cultures and languages. I know that schools did it in a different way—we did Japanese, and so forth—and it was excellent; the children genuinely enjoyed it. I don’t really understand how on earth that has been cut. But it’s been cut out of the baccalaureate and it’s been squeezed within the options. Joanna said that they are the only centre in the area. In Pembrokeshire, there is a centre in the south, a centre in the north and Ysgol y Preseli, so, of eight secondary schools, only three offer modern foreign languages. So, it is a crisis.
[56] William Graham: Mick.
[57] Mick Antoniw: Can I just explore with you a little bit of what you said earlier about the relationship with employers and the role they play? You described pupils going out to workplaces; you also described the problem of teachers themselves having work experience. Is that, essentially, what it amounts to in terms of the relationship with employers, or is there a more comprehensive relationship and engagement with employers?
[58] Ms Roberts: What we are working on is ensuring that our pupils see the curriculum as the way into employment, but also knowing what we deliver in school. I think it’s important that children need to know and to learn about the skills of finding employment, confidence, looking at their route into employment, but also I’m mindful that we are preparing children in our school, and in all schools, for jobs that haven’t been created yet, and so we need to be focusing on those skills that they need rather than the content of this and the content of that. I think that the employers that do come and work with us tell us that they need to be able to work as part of a team, they need to be able to do presentations and they need to be able to communicate effectively. In having the employers supporting that message that we are driving in school, I think that’s one important way forward.
[59] Mick Antoniw: I think that’s what I wanted to develop a bit. A number of European countries—Germany, but others as well—very effectively almost have employers on a regular basis throughout the curriculum participating in lectures, in talks et cetera, so that the relationship between certain subjects, and languages equally so, almost becomes part and parcel of the same thing. Now, it seems to me that we’re not anywhere near that sort of culture or relationship. Do you think that this is the sort of road that we should be going down?
[60] Ms Roberts: We’ve gone partly down that road, and we think it is the way forward. What we also see in our catchment area is that the people that are employed are former pupils of the school, and so our pupils who are in school see people that they know in employment and they give back; we have had a lot of former pupils, as well, coming back to talk about their experiences. I think that’s vital as well for key stage 4 and key stage 5, so that they can see a progression into work.
[61] Mr Davies: Bydden i’n mynd nôl at yr ateb a roddais ychydig bach yn gynharach, i ddweud y gwir: byddai sefydlu beth rydym ni’n ei alw yn ‘banel diwydiant’ neu ‘banel cyflogwyr’ yn ateb y broblem yma, oherwydd rydych chi’n dod â chyflogwyr at y bwrdd. Rydych yn dweud wrth y cyflogwyr beth mae’r cwricwlwm yn ei olygu, beth mae’r plant yn ei wneud, beth yw’r gweithgareddau sy’n cael eu cynnal, ac yn gofyn iddyn nhw, ‘Beth arall allwch chi gyfrannu? Beth fedrwch chi ei wneud i gynorthwyo ni er mwyn symud profiadau’r disgyblion ymlaen?’ Felly, rwy’n meddwl, pan rydych yn cael pobl fel cyflogwyr rownd y bwrdd, mae’n rhoi persbectif gwahanol i chi o beth maen nhw yn moyn. Yn amlwg, rydym ni’n dysgu’r disgyblion yn ôl y meysydd llafur ac yn sicrhau’r safonau a’r sgiliau, ond mae’r cyflogwyr yn dweud, ‘Ie, ond, beth biti hwn?’ ac wedyn rydych yn dweud ‘Ie, mae hynny’n syniad da’. Er enghraifft, yn tyfu mas o hynny daeth diwrnod rhifedd yn y gweithle.		Mr Davies: I would return to a response that I gave a little earlier, if truth be told: the establishment of what we call an ‘industry panel’ or an ‘employers panel’ would be the solution to that problem, because you are then bringing employers to the table, you’re telling them what the curriculum means, what the children study, what the activities provided are and then you ask them ‘What else can you contribute? What can you do to assist us in order to enhance pupil experience?’ I think that when you do get people such as employers around the table, it gives you a different perspective of what they want. Clearly, we teach the pupils in terms of the curriculum and we ensure that we reach certain standards and provide skills, but the employers will say, ‘Well, yes, but what about this?’ and then you think, ‘Yes, that’s a very good idea’. For example, developing from that, there was the numeracy in the workplace day.
[62] William Graham: We’re more than halfway through our session now, and I am keen to engage other Members. Joyce.
[63] Joyce Watson: Good morning, all. I want to just take this the next step forward, because it is about young people getting into work. I live in Pembrokeshire, so I want to ask Mr Davies, going back to a comment you made earlier, about the agricultural sector being the largest employer, which it clearly isn’t, as it’s 9%; it’s the public sector in Pembrokeshire, and mostly in Wales, and then tourism and the energy sector in Pembrokeshire. So, what relationship do you have with those sectors in Pembrokeshire? Of course, Ms Roberts, you’ve answered widely with your connections in Anglesey, so I will ask the same question to Joanna in terms of the connections of what you actually do know and recognise that is on the ground.
[64] Mr Davies: Ynghlwm wrth sir Benfro, yn amlwg mae’r disgyblion wedi bod yn mynd ar brofiad gwaith. Yn amlwg, mae’r plant yn ysgrifennu beth yw eu dyheadau nhw a’r hyn maen nhw am ei wneud ynglŷn â’r profiad, ac rydym ni’n ceisio rhoi’r profiadau iddyn nhw—ddim o reidrwydd yn sir Benfro; efallai bydd yn rhaid teithio ymhellach.		Mr Davies: In Pemrokeshire, the pupils have been going on work experience. Of course, the children write down what their aspirations are and what they want from the experience and we then try to give them the experiences—not necessarily in Pembrokeshire; they might have to travel further afield.
[65] Un peth rydym wedi ei wneud, os awn ni nôl at y pwynt amaethyddiaeth am funud, yn yr ysgol lle rwy’n dysgu, yn amlwg, mae canran uchel o ddisgyblion yn dod o gefndiroedd amaethyddol ac, yn sgil hynny, mae’r ysgol wedi sefydlu cwrs newydd mewn partneriaeth â Choleg Sir Benfro—peirianneg amaethyddol. Mae hynny yn sicr wedi denu canran o ddisgyblion efallai na fyddai â diddordeb mewn meysydd arall ar y cwricwlwm ac, iddyn nhw, hwn yw y cwrs. Ond, mae’n rhaid dweud unwaith eto, yn y fan hon, yn gyhoeddus, heddiw, bod perygl i’r cwrs yma yn y dyfodol oherwydd diffyg cefnogaeth ariannol. Arian grant sy’n cynnal y cwrs yma, mewn partneriaeth â Choleg Sir Benfro, ac rwy’n poeni’n arw am ddyfodol y cwrs hwnnw, sydd mor berthnasol i ganran o’n disgyblion ni.		One thing we have done, if we go back to the point about agriculture for a minute, in the school in which I teach, a high percentage of children come from agricultural backgrounds. In the wake of that, the school has established a new course in partnership with Coleg Sir Benfro in agricultural engineering. That has certainly attracted a percentage of pupils who may not have an interest in other curricular subjects, but this is the subject for them. I have to say once again, publicly today, that this course is in danger for the future because of a lack of financial support. This course is supported by grant money, in partnership with Coleg Sir Benfro, and I am very concerned about the future of that course, which is so relevant to a percentage of our pupils.
[66] Mae gennym gyflogwyr o’r maes amaethyddol ar y bwrdd llywodraethol ac ar y panel cyflogwyr. Mae Murco a Valero wedi bod yn hynod o gefnogol i ni o safbwynt cefnogi gweithgareddau a hefyd cynnig meysydd profiad gwaith i’n disgyblion ni. Mae twristiaeth, fel y dywedoch chi, Ms Watson, yn un o’r cyflogwyr mwyaf yn sir Benfro; yn sgil hynny, mae hamdden a thwristiaeth yn cael ei gynnig fel cwrs TGAU gan yr ysgol, ac mae busnes yn ddilyniant naturiol iddyn nhw yn y chweched dosbarth. Rydym yn mynd i lawr, fel y byddech yn disgwyl, i Fferm Folly, i Heatherton ac Oakwood. Mae’r rhain yn fannau y bydd y disgyblion hynny yn ymweld â nhw er mwyn gwneud astudiaethau achos. Felly, mae cysylltiadau uniongyrchol gan yr ysgol gyda sefydliadau.		We have employers from the agricultural field on the governing body and on the panel of employers. Murco and Valero have been very supportive of us in terms of supporting activities and also offering work experience placements to our pupils. Tourism, as you said, Ms Watson, is one of the biggest employers in Pembrokeshire and, in the wake of that, tourism and leisure is offered as a GCSE course by the school, and business is a natural continuation of that for them in the sixth form. We go down to Folly Farm, as you would expect, to Heatherton and to Oakwood. These are locations that pupils visit in order to do case studies. So, there are direct links between the school and those locations.
[67] William Graham: Dafydd, do you want to ask about further education?
[68] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Yes, diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Chair.
[69] Roeddwn yn falch iawn i’ch clywed chi’n cyfeirio at y bartneriaeth gyda Choleg Sir Benfro, a dyna roeddwn am ofyn ymhellach. Sut y mae llwybrau dysgu yn gweithio erbyn hyn, a sut y mae’r partneriaethau gyda’r colegau addysg bellach yn yr ardaloedd lle rydych i gyd yn gweithio ynddyn nhw yn gweithio? Sut y mae’r prosbectws ardal gyffredin a ffurflenni cais cyffredin, ac yn y blaen, yn gweithio erbyn hyn? Roeddwn â diddordeb mawr yn y pwynt ynglŷn â chyllid ar gyfer cydweithio, oherwydd mae hynny mewn perygl, yn ôl yr hyn rwy’n ei ddeall.		I was very pleased to hear you talk about the relationship with Coleg Sir Benfro, and that is what I wanted to ask about further. How are the learning pathways working now, and how are partnerships with further education colleges in the areas where you work working? How are common prospectuses and common application forms, and so on, working? I was particularly interested in your point about funding for collaboration, because my understanding is that that is at risk.
[70] Mr Davies: Ydy. Mae’r grant ar gyfer 14-19 yn cael ei ymgorffori yn y grantiau i gyd—mae 12 grant yn dod at ei gilydd. Mae ansicrwydd mawr ynglŷn â faint o arian fydd ar gael, ond atgyfnerthaf y pwynt: yn amlwg mae’n partneriaeth fawr ni gyda Choleg Sir Benfro, er gwaetha’r daith o Grymych i Hwlffordd, ond byddai’n drasiedi, a dweud y gwir, petai’r cyswllt hwnnw’n cael ei golli—a gallai hynny ddigwydd. Nid oes arian gyda’r coleg ac nid oes arian gennym ni i gynnal hwn; arian grant sy’n ei gynnal e.		Mr Davies: Yes. The grant for 14-19 is being incorporated in all of the other grants—12 grants are being brought together. There is great uncertainty as to how much funding will be available, but I will reinforce that point: obviously, our greatest partnerships is with Coleg Sir Benfro, despite the journey from Crymych to Haverfordwest, and it would be a tragedy if that link was lost—and that could happen. The college doesn’t have any funding and we don’t have any funding to maintain that link; it is grant money that does that.
[71] O safbwynt llwybrau dysgu 14—		In terms of the learning pathways for 14—
[72] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A ydych yn talu Coleg Sir Benfro am y gwasanaeth?		Lord Elis-Thomas: Do you pay Coleg Sir Benfro for the service?
[73] Mr Davies: Ydyn.		Mr Davies: Yes.
[74] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: A hynny fyddai’n cael ei golli.		Lord Elis-Thomas: And that is what would be lost.
[75] Mr Davies: Ie. Yn amlwg, maen nhw’n gallu amddiffyn y cwrs presennol o flwyddyn 10 mewn i 11, ond rydym ni’n sôn obeutu disgyblion blwyddyn 9 yn gwneud yr opsiynau nawr. Fe wnaethon nhw fe dydd Llun. Mae rhyw 15 â diddordeb ynddo fe, ond os nad yw’r cyllid yn dod, byddwn ni’n methu â rhedeg y cyrsiau. Byddai hynny, rwy’n meddwl, yn gyffredin ar draws yr ysgolion.		Mr Davies: Yes. Clearly, they can safeguard the current course for years 10 and 11, but we’re talking about the year 9 pupils choosing their options now. They did it on Monday. There are some 15 who are interested in that, but if we can’t actually find the funding, then we can’t run those courses. I think that that would be common across the schools.
[76] Yr hyn yr oedd llwybrau dysgu 14-19 i wneud oedd ehangu’r cwricwlwm a dod â mwy o ddewis galwedigaethol i’r ford. Yr hyn sy’n digwydd nawr yw bod y partneriaethau yna mynd i gael eu colli ac yn cael eu cyfyngu. Mae ysgolion yn ei wneud e mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Nid wyf eisiau dominyddu’r drafodaeth fan hyn, ond o safbwynt cais cyffredin ac yn y blaen, mae ysgolion yn gweithio ar y paratoadau nawr o lawlyfrau a prospectuses blwyddyn 10 a blwyddyn 12, ond mae marc cwestiwn mawr dros y cynnwys oherwydd bod marc cwestiwn mawr dros yr arian, achos os nad yw’r arian yna, byddwn yn methu â chynnal y partneriaethau.		What the 14-19 learning pathways did was to enhance the curriculum to provide greater vocational options. What is happening now is that those partnerships are going to be lost or certainly they will be restricted. Schools are doing in different ways. I don’t want to dominate the discussion here, but from the point of view of the common application and so on, schools are working now on the preparation of handbooks and prospectuses for years 10 and 12, but there is a great question mark over the content because of the question mark over the funding, because if the funding is not in place, we cannot maintain the partnerships.
[77] Ms Murray: I think, in our area, I would say that the link with Coleg Morgannwg has become less and less over the last few years. We work as a consortium of schools within the Rhondda valley, but our link with the college—. As a head of sixth form, I have very little link with Coleg Morgannwg now. What we have done is we’ve tried to provide, in every school, certain areas of expertise in certain areas of vocational training. So, for example, we have a hair salon at Treorchy and we take in all the hairdressing students from the other schools who wish to study with us. There’s a horticulture course in one of the other Rhondda schools and so on. But, in terms of the actual link with Coleg Morgannwg, we have very little link as a consortium of schools currently.
[78] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Mae gen i ryw syniad am y pictiwr gyda Choleg Llandrillo Menai, ond pe gallech chi esbonio sut y mae’n gweithio ar Ynys Môn, byddai’n help i ni.		Lord Elis-Thomas: I do have an idea of Coleg Llandrillo Menai, but perhaps you could explain how it’s working Anglesey, which would help us.
[79] Ms Roberts: Mae’r coleg yn cynnig cyrsiau i ni, ond hefyd, efo’r pum ysgol uwchradd, mae pob ysgol uwchradd yn cynnig rhywbeth gwahanol hefyd, er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cyrraedd y mesur. Mae trafodaethau’n digwydd y bore yma, fel mae’n digwydd, yn y sir ynglŷn â’r ffordd ymlaen o ran hynny, ond un o’r pethau rwy’n ei glywed yw bod y costau teithio hefyd yn bryder.		Ms Roberts: The college does provide courses for us, but also, with the five secondary schools, all of those provide different options to ensure that we reach the target. There are discussions happening this morning, as it happens, within the county on the way forward in that regard, but one of the things that I do hear is that the travel costs are also a concern.
[80] Mr Davies: Ydyn. Y broblem yw, o ran y costau teithio, mae’r rheini wedi bod yn rhan o’r arian grant ac os yw’r arian grant yn cael ei dorri, bydd y costau teithio yn cael eu torri ac felly bydd perygl i’r disgyblion i deithio.		Mr Davies: The problem is, in terms of travel costs, that they have been part of the grant funding and if that is cut, the travel costs will be cut as well, so there will be a risk in terms of the pupils travelling.
[81] Un gair arall ynglŷn â’r mesur, mae’n amlwg bod y mesur yng nghyfnod allweddol 4 wedi cael ei ddileu i bob pwrpas nawr, a mae llai o bynciau yn gallu cael eu cynnig ar gyfer TGAU yn 14 ac 16 oed, ond rydych yn dal yn mynnu bod y plant yn cael y dewis o 30 o bynciau yn y chweched dosbarth. Nid wyf yn siŵr pa mor gynaliadwy yw hynny ar gyfer y dyfodol. Yn amlwg, mae’n iawn i sôn am bartneru, ac mewn ardaloedd dinesig rwy’n gallu gweld hynny’n gweithio—rwy’n ei weld yn gweithio yn Hwlffordd trwy’r coleg a’r ddwy ysgol uwchradd presennol—ond pan rydych yn ynysig fel y mae Ysgol Preseli, yng Nghrymych, fel y byddech yn ei ddisgwyl, mae ceisio partneru gydag ysgolion tebyg i ni yn anodd iawn, iawn, oherwydd gallech ddweud taw Ysgol Bro Myrddin ac Ysgol Dyffryn Teifi, sydd 45 munud bant, yw’r ysgolion agosaf. Felly, mae partneru’n un peth, ond pan rydych yn trio cyrraedd y mesur o 30 o bynciau mewn un sefydliad neu, fel rydym wedi’i wneud nawr, yn ceisio cael cysylltiadau pellach, dyweder, gydag Ysgol Uwchradd Aberteifi, lle rydym yn cynnig Cymraeg iaith gyntaf i’w disgyblion nhw, mae hynny’n iawn, ond mae plant yn gyndyn iawn i drafeilio pellter.		One other comment about the target, it is clear that the target in key stage 4 has been abolished to all intents and purposes, and fewer subjects can now be offered at GCSE from 14 to 16, but you’re still insisting that the children have the choice of 30 subjects in the sixth form. I don’t know how sustainable that is for the future. Evidently, it is right to talk about partnerships and, in urban areas, I can see that working—I see it working in Haverfordwest through the college and the two secondary schools—but when you’re isolated as is Ysgol Preseli, in Crymych, as you would expect, trying to seek partnerships with schools that are similar to us is very, very difficult because you could say that Ysgol Bro Myrddin and Ysgol Dyffryn Teifi, which are 45 minutes away, are the closest schools to us. Therefore, having partnerships is one thing, but when you are trying to reach the target of 30 subjects within one organisation or, as we have done now, trying to have further links with Ysgol Uwchradd Aberteifi, where we offer Welsh as a first language to their pupils, that is fine, but children are very reluctant to travel a long way.
[82] Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: I gloi ar hyn, mae hyn yn broblem ddifrifol i ysgolion uwchradd llai. Ni af ati i restru’r rhai mae gen i ddiddordeb ynddynt yn y gogledd, ond rydych yn gwybod beth yr wyf yn ei feddwl.		Lord Elis-Thomas: To conclude on this, this is a very serious problem for smaller secondary schools. I won’t start to list the ones that I’m particularly interested in in my area, but you know what I mean.
[83] Mr Davies: Mae’r mesur a’r hawl yn un peth, ond mae ei weithredu’n hynod, hynod, hynod o anodd yn yr hinsawdd economaidd sydd ohoni.		Mr Davies: The target is one thing and the right is one thing, but actually delivering that is particularly difficult in the current economic climate.
[84] William Graham: I am very keen for us to explore again this business about work experience. We took quite a lot of evidence, particularly with pupils or ex-pupils who are not able to gain employment, and the reason they said time and time again was, ‘We haven’t got experience to offer an employer’. So, from your point of view, how could that be achieved from the schools’ point of view? Have you got anything for that? We’ve had suggestions that there could be regular placements over a longer period and, again, we had criticism that one, two or three weeks’ work placement was no work experience at all, and certainly wouldn’t be of any interest to an employer. Could you engage with that? Would that be possible?
10:15
[85] Mr Davies: Y peth y byddwn i’n ei ddweud yw: rydych yn mynd i ofyn y cwestiwn i ni a ydym ni’n adnabod y disgyblion efallai sydd mewn perygl o beidio bod mewn addysg—		Mr Davies: What I would say is: you are going to ask a question of us as to whether we identify the pupils who are perhaps at risk of not being in education—
[86] William Graham: No. With due respect, that’s a different question. What I am asking you is: within your school curriculum, can you offer greater experience for pupils in the world of work?
[87] Mr Davies: Rŷm ni’n gallu cynnig profiad gwaith, ond mae’n mynd yn fwy anodd oherwydd bod Gyrfa Cymru nawr yn dweud wrthym ni nad ydyn nhw’n mynd i fod yn fodlon trefnu profiad gwaith. Gyda nhw mae’r bas data; gyda nhw mae’r rhestr o gyflogwyr sydd wedi cael eu fetio, ac os ydyn nhw’n tynnu’r plwg ar brofiad gwaith, nid oes cyllid gyda ni, rwy’n siŵr, i gyflogi pobl yn weinyddol i fod yn gallu ei wneud e. Dywedais yn gynharach, rwy’n meddwl, fy mod yn teimlo bod hwn yn argyfwng achos os nad oes ffordd i’n plant ni i allu mynychu profiad gwaith cyson—. Nid oes ots am eu gallu nhw; mae e mor bwysig i fynd i Rhydychen ag yw e i’r plant sydd efallai’n mynd i fod yn chwilio am waith lleol ac yn y blaen—maen nhw’n bwysig, pob un ohonyn nhw. Ond heb y mynediad yna i brofiad gwaith, maen nhw’n mynd i fod o dan anfantais mawr, ac felly, o ganlyniad, gallai’ch canrannau NEETs chi gynyddu. Felly, mae cyswllt rhwng y ddau.		Mr Davies: We can offer work experience, but it is becoming more difficult because Careers Wales are telling us now that they are not going to be willing to arrange work experience. They have the database; they have the list of employers that have been vetted, and if they pull the plug on work experience, we don’t have the funding, I’m sure, to employ people administratively to be able to do that. I said earlier, I think, that I felt that this was a crisis because if there isn’t a way for our children to be able to do work experience regularly—. It doesn’t matter about their ability; it’s as important to go to Oxford as it is for the children who are perhaps going to be looking for work locally and so forth—they are important, every one of them. But without that access to work experience, they are going to be under a great disadvantage, and so, as a result, your NEET percentage could increase. So, there is a link between the two.
[88] Ms Murray: The issue is everything that Mr Davies has just said, but I think, also, it is the need for providing quality work experience. Since the careers service withdrew their help really with providing work experience placements, all our pupils self-place. So, they find their own work experience placements. All of our year 12 pupils go out on work experience; all of our year 10 pupils go out on work experience. But, since the self-placement has come into being, obviously pupils will go for the easy option. Whereas the careers service had links— they had links with the fire service, with the police service, with BT and with big employers like that—pupils don’t have those links, or the majority don’t have those links, and it’s very difficult to get a foot in the door unless dad maybe knows somebody who works there and so on. I think that what we are finding is that, yes, pupils are having work experience, but their experience is very varied: some of them will come away from there and say they’ve had the most fantastic experience, they’ve been fully utilised, they’ve learnt new skills, they’ve been given a summer job, and we can see the benefit of that, particularly when they come to write UCAS applications. We had a young lady who had a fantastic experience in a graphic design company locally a few years ago. They offered her a summer placement and they offered to fund her degree course as well. So, I mean those opportunities are there, but that really was more of a fluke than a common occurrence, in all honesty.
[89] I think, as well, the issue quite often, even when the careers service were providing these placements, is that we would have, on a regular basis, stories from pupils who were telling us that they were coming back and they were literally just sitting in a cupboard for a week, maybe filing the odd document here and there, or making tea or you know. So, I think, it’s quality placements; I think that’s the key. I think if we could get every pupil in year 12 and year 10 quality placements, then I think they would be far better placed to find employment when they leave school.
[90] Ms Roberts: Our pupils as well find their own work experience placements, which has given them the onus; it’s put the onus onto them in order to get them prepared for when they then move on to work. So, they have a little bit of an experience there; they do need to write a little bit of a summary about themselves so that the employer knows who they are. But one of the difficulties, when you’ve got 140 pupils going out onto work experience in a town like Holyhead, is finding those placements. But they have very, very good placements and some very good experiences as well. And the timing of ours means that some of them are kept on for summer jobs as well, so that’s something that they can add to their CV.
[91] William Graham: Jeff, you had a question on identification, I think, didn’t you?
[92] Jeff Cuthbert: Yes, I have. I mean there’s stacks of stuff; I wish we had a few hours, but we haven’t. On young people who are at greater risk than the norm, let’s say, and you have laid out a number of very significant practical problems in general that we’ll need to return to, undoubtedly, in terms of the committee’s future work, but for those young people who are in danger of becoming NEET—and we know now from research that this can be identified even before they come into secondary school—what additional support are you able to provide to young people like that, and indeed additional support for young people with other practical problems, such as learning disabilities?
[93] Ms Murray: I think that, as a school, we’re very conscious of this. We’re doing a lot of work at the moment working with pupils who are on free school meals, who I think are possibly one of the greatest at-risk groups. As soon as they come into key stage 4, we identify them and we work with them as a discrete group in order to try to raise aspirations and ensure that they are getting extra support. I mean, throughout the options process, if we can see that there are pupils who are quite disengaged, or if they have no idea of what they want to do next and so on, the options process is designed to put support into place to help them with applications to college, if that’s where they choose to go, or to employment, but, to be honest with you, the majority of these pupils will return to school in the sixth form.
[94] Jeff Cuthbert: They will or won’t, sorry?
[95] Ms Murray: They will. The majority will, in our instance. What we find very difficult is tracking them when they don’t decide to return to school, post 18 for example. So, I mean, we give them all the guidance we can: we will get them into college or university placements, or ensure that they do have apprenticeships. What, obviously, we can’t control is what happens to them once they leave us, because we know, through the grapevine as it were, that a number of them don’t go on to do what we’ve tried to put in place for them. But I think that’s a concern that, at 18, they somehow become lost in the system a little bit, and that, you know, there is limited support for them.
[96] Mr Davies: Byddwn i’n dweud rydych chi’n gwbl iawn. Mae e’n eithaf rhwydd i adnabod y rhai mwyaf bregus wrth iddyn nhw drosglwyddo o’r ysgol gynradd i’r ysgol uwchradd, ac os ydych chi’n gallu gwneud rhywbeth yn gynnar iawn ym mlynyddoedd 7 ac 8, mae’n gallu achub y sefyllfa.		Mr Davies: I would say that you’re entirely correct. It is relatively easy to identify the most vulnerable as they progress from primary to secondary school, and if you can actually do something very early on in years 7 or 8, it can actually greatly assist the situation.
[97] Mae, yn amlwg, Joanna wedi cyfeirio at y plant ciniawau am ddim; rydym ni’n adnabod y plant bregus o’r cynradd. Mae’r grant amddifadedd sydd wedi cael ei roi, sydd wedi cynyddu o ran cyllid, yn ffordd o gynllunio gweithgareddau gwahanol ar gyfer disgyblion, megis rhai, efallai, sy’n debygol o fod yn NEET yn y dyfodol. Mae ffyrdd gwahanol o’i wneud e. Un ffordd oedd cyflogi: rydym ni’n defnyddio’r arian i gyflogi gweithiwr ieuenctid i weithio ar gynllun o’r enw Cynllun Cam Ymlaen, yn adnabod y disgyblion mwyaf bregus. Yr hyn rydym ni’n ei wneud yw codi eu hyder nhw, gwella eu hymddygiad nhw, gwella eu presenoldeb nhw, ac hefyd cynnig cymwysterau amgen, cynnig cymwysterau ychwanegol iddyn nhw, sy’n hala i’w hunanwerth nhw i wella, felly maen nhw’n teimlo’n well am eu hunain. Os ydyn nhw wedyn, ar ôl blynyddoedd 7 ac 8, yn dal yn dangos y dystiolaeth yma efallai y gallan nhw fod—efallai eu bod nhw’n cael eu gwahardd yn aml—yna, mae’n rhaid mynd at yr elfen profiad gwaith yma, oherwydd os ydym ni’n gallu tapio mewn i ddiddordebau’r disgyblion yma ac yna eu cyfeirio nhw at fannau profiad gwaith, efallai byddai hanner diwrnod fan hyn, hanner diwrnod fanco, yn lot gwell iddyn nhw na dwbwl Ffrangeg, ddywedwn ni. Oherwydd mae’r disgyblion yma yn rhai bregus iawn, iawn, ac mae angen iddyn nhw gael blas ar beth yw e i fod mewn gwaith, a byddai’r sgiliau meddal y bydden nhw’n eu datblygu dros amser yn lot, lot fwy defnyddiol iddyn nhw. Felly, mae yna ffyrdd o’i wneud e. Yn amlwg, mae e’n fwy heriol mewn rhai mannau na mannau eraill—mae’n dibynnu ar eich niferoedd chi—ond mae yna ffyrdd o’i wneud e.		Now, Joanna has referred to free school meals. We identify vulnerable children from primary school. The deprivation grant that has been given, which has increased in terms of funding, is a means of planning different activities for pupils, such as those who are at risk of being NEET in the future. There are different ways of doing it. One way is to employ someone: we use the money to employ a youth worker to work on a scheme called Cynllun Cam Ymlaen, or stepping forward, which identifies the most vulnerable children. What we do is that we boost their confidence, improve their behaviour, improve their attendance, and also offer alternative qualifications or additional qualifications to them, which actually enhances their own self-worth, so that they feel better about themselves. So, if after years 7 and 8, they’re still demonstrating this evidence—they may be being suspended regularly—then you have to actually go to that work experience element, because if we can tap into these pupils’ interests and then refer them to relevant work experience locations, perhaps half a day here, half a day there will be far more effective for them than double French, let’s say. Because, these pupils are very, very vulnerable pupils and they need a flavour of what it means to be in work, and the soft skills that they would develop over time would be far more useful to them. So, there are ways and means of doing this. Obviously, it is more challenging in some areas than others—it depends on your numbers, for one thing—but there are ways of doing it.
[98] Os awn ni wedyn at yr elfen o adnabod, efallai, pobl fel gofalwyr ifanc, mae hwn yn anodd iawn—gofalwyr ifanc—achos mae yna wobr o’r enw buddsoddwyr gofalwyr ifanc sy’n cael ei chynnig ar hyn o bryd, ac rydym ni wedi gweld bod cynnydd aruthrol wedi bod yn y nifer o ddisgyblion sydd yn ofalwyr ifanc, ac mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid inni deilwra ar eu cyfer nhw. O ran plant sydd â phroblemau iechyd, teilwra cwricwlwm, lleihau dewisiadau efallai, ac i rai disgyblion anabl, mae yna gymorth ar hyn o bryd oddi wrth Y Cwmni Gyrfa i helpu gyda disgyblion, efallai, sydd ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, ac maen nhw yn fodlon eu lleoli nhw ar brofiad gwaith. So, mae yna ffyrdd gwahanol o wneud hwn.		If we then move to the element of identifying people such as young carers, this is a very difficult area, because there is an award called investors in young carers that is being provided, and we have seen a huge increase in the number of pupils who are young carers, and that means that we have to tailor services for them. In terms of children with health problems, we need to tailor the curriculum, we need to reduce the number of options, and for disabled pupils, there is assistance available from The Careers Co. to assist with pupils who have additional learning needs, and they are willing to actually find work experience placements for them. So, there are different ways of doing this.
[99] Ms Roberts: And, similarly in Holyhead, we have a pupil deprivation grant that we have match funded with Communities First to employ a family engagement worker who works with the children and with their families. I think having the support of families in order to help children into work is vitally important as well. We look at extended work experience with qualifications as a way of moving forward into the workplace. We have a careers adviser who has been relentless in the work that she has done, in particular when it gets to the summer holidays. It’s making sure that those applications are in and it’s never, ever giving up on those, and so that is vital as well in supporting pupils. Our looked-after children have a tutor who comes in to work with them periodically and we also have support for children who are young carers.
[100] William Graham: Rhun, did you have a question on the Welsh language?
[101] Rhun ap Iorwerth: I’ve got lots of questions that I don’t think we’re going to have time to get to. I’ll come to a question on the Welsh language, if you like, in a minute.
[102] Rydych chi wedi crybwyll y sgiliau meddal—nid wyf yn meddwl ein bod wedi trafod digon ar hynny cweit. Beth a ydych chi’n ei wneud i sicrhau bod y sgiliau meddal—llenwi CVs, paratoi ar gyfer ymddwyn yn iawn mewn cyfweliadau ac ati—yn cael eu gwneud yn iawn?		You have mentioned the soft skills—I don’t think we’ve discussed that enough. What are you doing to ensure that those soft skills—filling out CVs and preparing for behaving correctly in interviews and so forth—are being done properly?
[103] Ms Murray: All of our pupils in year 11 and year 13—. We’ve got a mock interview programme, where we get local employers and universities, et cetera, into school to interview them. Before the interview takes place, as part of the PSE programme in the school, they’re given advice on how to draw up CVs, interview technique and so on. Our careers adviser from Careers Wales works with us on that as well.
[104] Obviously, it’s not an entirely realistic process, but at least it gives them an opportunity to be in front of somebody that they don’t know. They have to make a good first impression. They’re given feedback; all our interviewers fill in a feedback form, which we then go through with the pupils, and if we can see that there is an issue—. Because, in the area where I work, confidence is a major issue and this comes out year after year after year: they’ve got a lot of abilities and they’ve got a lot of good qualities, but they can’t sell themselves, and this is something that we try to approach on a whole-school basis. I would say that everything that we do and the whole school ethos is building pupils’ confidence, not just obviously in interview situations, but in every situation, and trying to raise their aspirations as well.
[105] Rhun ap Iorwerth: Oes yna ddigon o arweiniad ar raddfa genedlaethol i chi sicrhau bod hynny’n cael ei wneud yn iawn?		Rhun ap Iorwerth: Is there enough leadership at a national level to ensure that that is being done properly?
[106] Ms Roberts: Rwy’n meddwl bod yna le i ddatblygu ymhellach yn fan honno. Trwy wahanol gyrsiau—. Rydym ni’n dibynnu ar y peth sy’n digwydd ar y cwrs ABaCh ac mae’r bac wedi bod yn cynnig cyfleodd felly, ond rwy’n cofio adeg lle’r oedd yna athro gyrfaoedd yn yr ysgol oedd yn gwneud hynny efo pawb. O bosib, mae eisiau mynd yn ôl, efallai, i’r gwersi rydym wedi eu dysgu o’r gorffennol.		Ms Roberts: I think there is work to be done there. Through various courses—. We depend upon what happens on the PSE course and the bac has offered opportunities, but I recall a time when there was a careers teacher in school who would actually do that with all pupils. Perhaps we need to return to the lessons that we have learnt in the past.
[107] Rhun ap Iorwerth: Ac i ehangu ar hynny—efo llygaid ar y cloc—hefyd mae yna lawer mwy o bwyslais yn mynd i fod ar roi cyngor gyrfaoedd ar lein i bobl ifanc rŵan, yn hytrach na chyswllt un-i-un.		Rhun ap Iorwerth: And to expand on that—with an eye on the clock—there’s going to be much more emphasis on giving online careers advice to young people now, rather than one-on-one contact. How concerned are you about that?
[108] Ms Roberts: Mae hynny’n bryder.		Ms Roberts: That is a concern.
[109] Rhun ap Iorwerth: Pa mor bryderus a ydych chi am hynny, yn fyr?		Rhun ap Iorwerth: How concerned are you about that, briefly?
[110] Ms Roberts: Rydym ni’n bryderus iawn am hynny, oherwydd mae disgwyl i’r plentyn ei hun mynd i chwilio am wybodaeth heb i rywun fod yn ei gyfeirio. Maen nhw’n cael y cyfeiriad i fynd ato fo, ond hefyd rhaid bod yn realistig. Er bod ganddynt ffonau symudol sy’n gwneud pob math o bethau fedraf i ddim o’u gwneud, maen nhw angen mwy o ddarpariaeth a mwy o gefnogaeth i fedru ffeindio’u ffordd trwy hynny. Hefyd, mae nifer o blant sydd heb y teclynnau yma wrth law.		Ms Roberts: We are extremely concerned about that, because the pupil himself or herself is expected to seek that information without direction. They are given some direction, but we have to be realistic. Although they have mobile phones that can do all sorts of things that I couldn’t possibly do, they do need more support and more provision to find their way through that. Also, there are children who don’t have these devices to hand.
[111] Rhun ap Iorwerth: Ie, ac ym Mhreseli?		Rhun ap Iorwerth: Yes, and in Preseli?
[112] Mr Davies: Gwnaf jest ddweud: rwy’n meddwl bod y disgyblion mwyaf bregus yw’r rhai y bydd lleiaf tebygol o ddefnyddio, efallai, y rhwydweithiau hyn pan fydd yn golygu dod o hyd i gyngor a dod o hyd i’r gwaith. Mae angen arnyn nhw y cyswllt wyneb-yn-wyneb, hyd yn oed gyda’u rhieni wrth eu hochrau nhw—byddech chi’n gallu cael nhw mewn—er mwyn sicrhau nad ydynt yn cwympo ar y naill ochr.		Mr Davies: I’ll just say: I think that the most vulnerable pupils are those least likely to use these networks when it would mean finding advice and the work that they need. They need face-to-face contact, even with their parents by their side—you could call them in—in order to ensure that they don’t fall by the wayside.
[113] Rhun ap Iorwerth: Ac rydym wedi clywed awgrym o’r peth sy’n digwydd yng Nghaergybi. Ond, ar yr iaith Gymraeg, pa bwyslais a ydych chi’n ei wneud yn Nhreorci ac ym Mhreseli ar ddefnyddioldeb sgiliau iaith Gymraeg wrth symud i’r gweithle?		Rhun ap Iorwerth: And we’ve heard a suggestion of what’s happening in Holyhead. But, on the Welsh language, what emphasis are you placing in Preseli and Treorchy on the usefulness of Welsh language skills in moving into the workplace?
[114] Mr Davies: Wel, i ni, mae’n amlwg yn naturiol. Rydym yn ysgol gyfrwng Gymraeg—yr unig un yn Sir Benfro—ac mae’n ddisgwyliedig arnom ni i sicrhau ein bod yn codi proffil y gallu i fod yn ddwyieithog. Mae’n rhywbeth elfennol yn ein gwaith ni o ddydd i ddydd, ac rydym yn gwerthu fe trwy ddweud fe fyddech chi’n fwy cyflogedig wrth fod yn ddwyieithog. Rydym ni’n ceisio cael y siaradwyr gwadd sy’n dod mewn i siarad â nhw, boed yn gyn-ddisgyblion neu’n llywodraethwyr ac yn y blaen, i annerch nhw yn y Gymraeg—yn amlwg, mwyaf o bobl sy’n siarad Cymraeg, gorau i gyd.		Mr Davies: Well, for us, of course, it comes naturally. We are a Welsh-medium school—the only one in Pembrokeshire—and it is an expectation upon us to ensure that we do raise the profile of bilingualism. It is a core part of our day-to-day activity, and we do sell it by saying that you will be more employable by being bilingual. We try to have the guest speakers who come in to speak to them, be they former pupils or governors and so on, to address them in Welsh—clearly, the more Welsh speakers we have, the better.
10:30
[115] I ddefnyddio enghraifft Ms Watson fanna ynglŷn â Thaith at Waith, mae blwyddyn 9 i gyd yn mynd i lawr i neuadd y sir, ac yna maen nhw’n cael eu hannerch, dywedwch, gan y Cynghorydd Huw George neu bwy bynnag. Mae’n rhywbeth elfennol bwysig i ni bod plant lle mae—beth yw e nawr—87% yn dod o gartrefi di-Gymraeg yn Ysgol y Preseli, yn gallu gweld bod defnydd i’r iaith lle bynnag maen nhw’n mynd.		To use Ms Watson’s example of Taith at Waith, all of year 9 go down to the town hall and they are addressed by Councillor Huw George or whoever it may be. It is something that is crucially important to us that children where—I think—87% come from non-Welsh-speaking homes in Ysgol y Preseli, can see that there is use for the Welsh language wherever they go.
[116] Ms Murray: Bilingualism’s extremely important in Treorchy. We take a lot of pupils into Treorchy from Welsh-medium primary schools. We run a Cwrs Carlam for the more able pupils so that they do accelerated learning in Welsh, they do their GCSE at the end of year 9 and AS at the end of year 11, and then complete the A-level at the end of year 12. We have one class in every year group who are pupils who are Welsh first language and they are taught bilingually then in six or seven curriculum areas. So, yes, the emphasis on bilingualism is very heavy in Treorchy.
[117] Rhun ap Iorwerth: And in terms of the emphasis on that being useful for entry into the workplace—
[118] Ms Murray: Because we feel that it’s such an important skill in the workplace, and that is made very clear to all pupils. I mean, all pupils in Treorchy do a full course GCSE in Welsh. We don’t do short course, and those skills are—. I mean, the headteacher addresses assemblies in Welsh, and, you know, it is a part of everyday life. Even though we’re an English-medium school, it is part of everyday life, because we see the importance of it in the workplace.
[119] Rhun ap Iorwerth: But it’s worth noting, I suppose, here, that Treorchy, if not unique, stands out as being rather different from most schools in that respect.
[120] Ms Murray: I think probably we are sector leading in that instance, yes.
[121] William Graham: Any other questions from Members? Well, thank you very much all of you for coming today and for the way you’ve given your evidence; you’ve sparked quite a few questions from Members. I’m most grateful to you. There will be a transcript of today’s evidence session for you to look at and comment on in due course. Thank you very much for coming today. That concludes the formal part—
[122] Ms Roberts: Can I just mention—.
[123] William Graham: Sorry. Yes, please.
[124] Ms Roberts: I saw, in the terms of reference of your inquiry, European funding, and I forgot to mention the great support—
[125] William Graham: Please do.
[126] Ms Roberts:—we’ve had from Llwyddo’n Lleol, who are instrumental in arranging this jobs fair, the bilingual jobs fair, but also they form part of delivering an enterprise, and entrepreneurial skills as well, for pupils lower down in the school. It takes them through work skills qualifications as well. I just needed to note that as well.
[127] William Graham: Thank you very much. Thank you for your attendance today. Thank you. That brings our formal meeting to a close.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 10:32. The meeting ended at 10:32.